Rub lines and scrapes verses doe density

[SongDoghunter]

About 15 years ago, a 300 acre farm across the road from my lease underwent massive doe killing that summer due to the crop depredation of the farmer's soybeans. I heard they killed over 100 does. I personally saw dozens of carcasses.

That fall, I hunted a creek bottom adjacent to this farm. By late October, the ironwood trees along this little creek were rubbed so distinctly that you could literally see the rub line for 50-60 yards in either direction. The same was true anywhere you looked within about a mile of this farm. The scrapes in November were the same and I saw some the size of a car hood that would actually hold water when it rained. They had been worked that much.

In the years that followed the rub lines gradually disappeared as did the massive killing off of these does. Three years ago, I was taking pictures of 8-12 does at a time in front of my cameras. That fall, you had to search to find a decent rub or scrape. Last year was a bit better as we killed about 25 does that first year. Last year we killed about 30 does. We now have more bucks than ever on my property as we have killed nothing smaller than 6 points in the past 3 years. I think we will see more rutting activity this year as the doe population is going down and the buck population is going up, especially the number of 3 year old and better bucks.

My theory is that when there is little or no competition for a doe in heat, there is not a need to make numerous rubs and breeding scrapes as there is when the does are less plentiful. I hear of various areas of the state having great rutting activity every year while we seem to have a trickle rut with does being bred from mid October right into January.( Another reason our deer season should run through January like Alabama) After all, why should a buck respond to a doe in heat urine, work a breeding scrape, or mark territory when he is bedded with 8 does 24/7?

My point is we need to really start to manage our deer herd statewide by killing as many does as is possible while still mantaining a healthy number. Also, too many guys wait till the last couple weeks of the season to kill does as they are afraid they will run a nice buck off by shooting does early on. Typically, I've observed that they wind up killing button bucks or young does. I am just the opposite. I try to concentrate on killing as many big, mature does as possible during the muzzleloader season, thus limiting the number available a few weeks later when the rutting starts. Just me thinking out loud!!

CP

[alien319]

Thanks Doghunter. That was a good post. It seems to make sense to me.

[RenegadeRN]

Real world research! Thanks CP.

I've tried talking to the guys in my lease about 'managing' the herd...but always gets shot down in meetings. I believe it is the only way we are gonna get larger and more genetically superior bucks in this area. All we've seen this year are does on cameras and still the hunting club membership rules are one doe (not state law). I think some of the older ways die hard.

You mentioned taking only 6 pt and larger? And while I understand removing the aging bucks...what about some of the genetically inferior 'forks' etc. and keeping some of the larger bucks a few years?

[SongDoghunter]

Interesting question Renegade. Firstly, let me say that I have the highest respect for our WRC biologists and the jobs they do. However, I've been told a few things by them that simply are not true in the area I hunt. Most of our biologist with the WRC are not necessarily specialty biologists on deer or a particular animal. They serve as a general guide for all our game animals.

With that said, I do not buy into the cull theory. There is basically no such thing as a cull deer in Eastern North Carolina with a few exceptions. The single biggest problem we have in the east is the lack of herd management on a large scale and by herd management I mean the taking of mature does. We actually have good genetics in most of our deer and they certainly are not lacking for quality food sources. I am an advocate of well placed food plots as a supplemental food source but our deer do not need all the minerals and supplements the deer in the Piedmont do. I've been deer hunting for 37 years and have never had any success with Deercaine, Acorn Rage, C'MereDeer, etc. I've heard a few guys who claim to have success with these products but deer are like hogs and cows. If they are not mineral deficient, they will not eat supplement! The fact that we have so many "scrubby" deer is due to the fact that we kill too many 2 year old deer. By killing all the 2 year olds, it leaves a large population of young deer who have not had an opportunity to grow 3 years or more worth of antlers to outgrow their adolesent awkwardness and develop their full potential.

We are far from getting our deer herd to the point of taking older "cull" animals like the Texas management bucks. We are still in our infancy of trying to first mange our doe population. Each of us knows someone who has taken that exceptional 145 class buck in our hunting areas. This is simply due to the fact that the old guy was able to stay out of sight until he was 4 years old or older. Two years ago, I took pictures of a cow horn yearling buck with one side broken off. His nose had been broken and he looked like an ant eater. I let him walk just to see if he would make it. Last year, I took his picture again and he was a 5 point with a nice 13 inch spread. Too many people would have killed him the first year assuming he was inferior. On my lease, we are in our third year of management not only for the minimum size of a buck, but the number of does we kill. I have dozens of 15 inch 8 points walking around this year. Still, this is not the year to take them. Next year or the following year will be the time. They will be 4- 6 years old and will be about as good as they are going to get. Once we have gone through about 8 years of cycle, we can begin to take a few of the older deer that have aged out. Only then, this must be done by hunters who are knowledgable in aging a deer by body size, not horn development.

More on this later.

CP

[RenegadeRN]

I agree totally! Management is the key. And I am with you on the mineral supplements. Never saw one work yet in the years I have been here. I for one think you should keep the soapbox out.

[SongDoghunter]

Well,
I wouldn't exactly say I'm on a soapbox. In talking earlier about the culls, killing does, and 2 year old deer, I left out a couple of other observations. I've aged dozens of deer over the past 20 years and the vast majority of them were 2- 2and 1/2 year old bucks, most of which the hunter responsible for the kill swore were 4 years old. The plain truth is that most of the hunters I know simply do not know how to age a deer either by a jawbone or by looking at the deer in the field.

The guys who run the big ranches in Texas for example are experts at looking at a deer's overall body size, neck length, height, girth at the shoulders, size of the head etc. and determining that animal's age. While I don't want to open the dog hunting can of worms, that has been the predominant hunting method here in the east. Unfortunately, I have seen the "If it's brown it's down" policy practiced for years on area clubs. This is detrimental to any management efforts on surrounding clubs. Back to the 2 year old deer: this is one area that the biologists have proven to be consistent in that most of the deer killed fall in this age bracket. This causes a particular class of deer to be killed each year leaving either yearling deer or older bucks that have become mostly nocturnal due to hunting pressure. While the occasional big buck is taken, most remain nocturnal and eventually die without being seen more than a couple of times. Therefore, if the majority of the bucks killed each year are 2 years old, only a handful are left to make it through to become a big buck. From the still hunting point of view, remembering that the older guys are mostly nocurnal, without proper herd management and a proper buck/doe ratio, we are only going to see a bunch of young deer eating our corn up. I've never killed a nice buck on a corn pile. I've killed some nice deer that simply fell victim to their lust by following a doe on her way to the corn. How many hunters do you know who always take their nice buck pictures at 3:30am? Start taking notice of the deer you see on your bait piles and see if they are not the same old deer over and over until around the second week in November. All of a sudden, new deer will appear you didn't know were around. Imagine how much more defined this would be if the does were killed down to management numbers. Also, it is not unusual to see several small 6 pointers or even the occasional 8 point (2.5 year old) show up everyday with the does. Not the big boys. After a buck reaches about three years old, he is wise enough to stop hanging out with mama unless its time to do a little business.

Again, the bottom line is that our bucks just don't live long enough to see what their antler potential really is. Kill the does and let the young bucks walk. One final note: when killing does, it is very important to kill older mature does. The older a doe gets the more likely she is to drop twin doe fawns! The first year a doe breeds is her best chance at producing a buck fawn. Too many hunters just shoot a doe out of frustration because they are not seeing anythin else. It takes a great deal of discipline to hunt 2 years while passing up 14 inch 8 ointers, especially for someone who has never had muck luck deer hunting. It's all about the numbers!

It is my intent on my lease to get a buck to doe ratio as close as possible to even numbers. When this happens, we will see predomint rut periods with bucks fighting and running does.

[RenegadeRN]

CP? It's an interesting observation you make about November time frame. I've been on this lease for 5 years and watching other hunters. While you could say that hunting pressure changes (and I am sure it does a little) during the last three years there hasn't been a deer taken, either buck or doe, after the second week of November. They have not left and are there...there is enuff sign showing there is some movement...I dunno what to make of it. In part I do think they are getting stealthier due to pressure...but I also think they are moving out of the area. I just either have not gone enuff or paid enuff attention to notice changes in November you are mentioning.

[SongDoghunter]

The deer are there Renegade. They are just nocturnal due to hunting pressure. Everyone I've talked to the past two years has commented on not seeing many deer during daylight hours. Here's my theory on that.

During the past 4 years, more and more hunters have purchased cameras. Setting the flash/no flash debate aside, a hunter readies his stand for hunting by mowing lanes, putting up feeders, painting stands, hanging stands, baiting etc. while all the while scenting up his hunting area. Now that all that is complete which most hunters do in several trips to the stand area, he decides to put out some corn and hang his camera. Now when I say put out some corn, I don't mean several hundred pounds that will last several weeks. I mean a bag or two because it isn't hunting season yet and he only wants to take pictures. With this complete, he lacks the patience and discipline needed to leave the camera in there for a month or more and absolutely has to go get the card out of the thing after 3-4 days to see what has shown up to eat his corn. Now he returns to get his card and sees his corn is partiially eaten and decides he will come back Saturday to check the camera again and put out more corn: all of this before he has hunted 1 day! This goes on every few days.

Most hunters I know are doing this after work, in their work clothes, covered in all kinds of grease fumes, cologne, you name it, and worst of all, about an hour before dark when deer are already on the hoof feeding. He busts deer he doesn't even know are anywhere around. This continues every few days until the season opens and the first comment out of his mouth is " Dem deer hav dun quit feedin fore dark and the onliestun' I'm a gittin a pixture uf is atter midnite and des jus does"! Sound like anyone you hunt with????
By the time the season opener roles around, every deer within a mile radius of these guys have patterned them right down to the time they know the hunter will arrive. You get what I'm saying Renegade. This is what's known as hunting pressure and deer do not like it. I dumped corn on my stands for the first time this last week. I placed 1500 lbs of cob corn at one time at each stand. I will not be in there every 3-4 days to see if they are eating it because I know what they will do. They've been doing it for the last 37 years. They are going to eat that corn in the morning, afternoon, or after dark and a lot of that is totally up to me! I never enter a stand to hunt without rubber boots, a shower, scent free clothing, and cover scent(Red Fox Urine). I don't hunt the same stand everyday either. Even the quietest, cleanest hunter cannot walk into a stand area several days in a row without deer knowing it. If one could, there would be no deer left because the hunters and predators would have killed them all. Hunting pressure has nothing to do with a weapon. It has everything to do with human presence!

[RenegadeRN]

Very interesting observations and YES, without a doubt a few of the hunters on the club are exactly like you mention them to be. In fact I have been guilty of some of what you say. I do not have a camera and only put corn out a few times a year with a large amount being left...but I have been known to go in the same way all the time. No, my work doesn't allow me to go in the sametime, etc. But you can bet I will be watching what I do. Rubber boots huh? Red fox urine? I do take the shower, keep my stuff in baking soda laden bags, cover scent, etc. though. Hmmm....all good ideas.

[SongDoghunter]

Rubber boots and cover scent are the bare minimum. Leather boots or work boots trap all sorts of odors like gasoline, smoke etc. Rubber is impervious to scents and can be washed off. They do not lay down a human or unnatural scent trail when you enter the woods. Even if you are unable to wash or change clothing before you hunt, always wear rubber knee boots like the LaCrosse Boots shown on the main page. Everyone has his or her own way of doing things. I just know what has worked for me for 37 years and I have never had a season yet when I did not have the opportunity to fill 4 buck tags on 8 point or better bucks if I chose to. Although my lease has a 6 point minimum, I would not dream of shooting a buck less than about a 16-18 inch 8 point, and I'm getting more picky every year. Some of my guys have just never killed anything but does and until they have an opportunity to kill a couple of decent bucks, it's hard to place too many restrictions on them.

Most of my stands can be entered from at least 2 directions.

[manxxcatt]

I agree..management is key. I make it a point to shoot out does. Besides they make good for freezer meat, it enhances the buck population. I also purposely do not shoot anything under a 6. On the family land, it's a law for us. No bucks under 6pt, under penalty of being beat to sh*t by the redneck family :)

[alien319]

This is outstanding! I love this site! Keep it up, I'm learning!

[RenegadeRN]

Me TOO Alien! Wondering about the rubber boots thing. How are they for ankle support? Walking in? Do your feet/ankles get damp from sweat? I am imagining some 'Sneads Ferry Sneakers' kinda thing. During the off season I ride my 4wheeler in to the stand, but come season I leave it a quarter mile or so back at a T. I have to walk in and across a logging deck OR through the timber to get to my stand before daybreak and after sunset. So ankle support would be a must.

As far as Fox Urine goes? "Will any dab do ya?"

[manxxcatt]

Lol...sneads ferry sneakers...

There are plenty of rubber hunting boots available with good ankle support. The Marine Corps graced me with a set of bad ankles and knees that came with my DD-214 and my Honorable Discharge, so I have to have a bit of ankle support. If you get over Fayetteville way at all, go check out Gander Mountain, or of course there's Cabelas or Gander Mountain online, or BassPro..etc, etc.

[SongDoghunter]

LaCrosse probably makes the largest selection of rubber boots available. I have a pair that are insulated and a pair that are not. The newer boots are form fitted around the anle and fit just like regular boots. They are not the Sneads Ferry Sneakers that rub blisters on your heels and ankles.

As for the Fox Urine, spray those boots with it and spray around your stand when you get there so any wind currents are interrupted by the Fox Urine. It helps maks human odor and the deer are used to it. Raccoon is fine too.

[Mustang]

Harvesting a doe is an easy way to get some meat in the freezer.