Nightforce versus ????

[RenegadeRN]

I am quite sure this kinda post has been hashed ad nauseum at other forums on the web. But I am wondering if anyone here has first hand experience with Nightforce scopes? I KNOW all about the costs, etc. Just wondering is all...

[RenegadeRN]

Actually I LIKE some of their reticles is why. Most quality scopes manufacturers build a BDC, Mil-Dot, Mil-Rad, distance guaging reticle...but not as well to my liking as the NF. But they are steep and some of the scopes have an MLR reticle that is close to the NF scope reticle I like. And the extra $600 and some change would be nice to keep...BUT!!

[alien319]

They are beautiful scopes Renegade! I wish I could hash out the cash for one but it is ok. They are nice scopes. I've just looked through them before but have not shot with them before.

[SongDoghunter]

Renegade,

I have had a couple of their scopes that I traded other items for. While they are great scopes, there just isn't anything about their components that makes them worth the kind of money they ask. I'm the same way about Leupold. I refuse to buy one just because of the price. They are not that much better than a 300.00 scope to my eye. I've killed literally hundreds of deer and other animals using Simmons and Bushnell upper end scopes. I only recently aquired a couple of Nikon scopes only because they advertise on my site and provided them as promotional consideration. On of the most impressive scopes I've used lately is the Simmons Aetec with the side focus. I can't see anything else anyone could want in a scope. I liken it to the price of a military aircraft. What could possibly be incorporated into a B2 bomber that makes them worth 2 billion dollars. The technology and materials are just not that expensive!

[alien319]

Doghunter you are right in many ways. I love Leupolds too, they are just very expensive. I purchased a Konus Pro M30 for my Long Range .308 rig. It is a 30mm scope and is beautiful for the price I paid. $259.00. 4.5-16X44.

[SongDoghunter]

Don't get me wrong now! Not every cheap scope is qualified to be a Leupold or Nightforce. However, there are very few that exceed the 200.00 threshold that lack much in the way of quality. I guess what i'm saying is that a 900.00 VXIII will do nothing my 200.00 Aetec can't do. The big difference in price is the big letters
L E U P O L D.

Aot of folks just don't feel like they have a quality tool if the right name isn't written on it.

[Mustang]

I purchased 4 Leupolds under their Mil/LE program (30-45% off....which is totally different now days). I have a VX-I, II, III and L. The I and II don't do anything the aforementioned scopes do and at $200-300 I wouldn't really expect it to. Where the difference is in the III and I've lined scopes up and you can definitely see the 'crisp' and brightness difference it, the I, II and other brands that I have. I gave $370 or so for the III brand new. And no...they don't "GATHER" light.

Nightforce? I'd have a hard time paying for $1500 for a scope. It better be able to shuffle cards for that much.


Look at the prices of US Optics scopes.....$3000 +, S&B $2000 +etc.

[SongDoghunter]

Mustang made a great comment about 'Gathering Light"! I've heard several people state that certain scopes had better light gathering capabilities than others as if they had a platoon of little munchkins inside that gather light and then turn it on all at once as it gets dark outside to give you a clear, bright picture of your target. As he said, this doesn't happen at all.

No scope, regardless of price has the ability to be proactive and gather light. Scopes transmit light in varying degrees depending on the size of the objective lens verses the eyepiece or focal lense. They work exactly like your eye in that the wider your eye is open in the dark and the larger your pupil is dialated, the better you can see in low light and darkness. Even then, the higher the magnification which decreases your field of view, the darker the image is in your scope. After a certain point, the quality of the glass and tube construction becomes no issue. The only way to see more as darkness approaches is to increase the diameter of the objective lens of the scope. At some point, even a 6 inch stove pipe with a scope lens in it won't help you.

The one exception to this statement would be a starlight or night vision scope that has an electronic light intensifier in it for night vision. These of course are illegal for hunting.

[RenegadeRN]

You all brought up a fine point...if the govt has paid $300 for a hammer or $500 for toilet seats kinda thing in the past there are those who would pay the same for the same product. For the price of a USO or SB you can get a fine, customized rifle built by one of the top gunsmiths in the country AND put a nice scope on it. And if it is made? There IS someone who will buy it just to say they have one. Then there are those who have to one up the other person....so it snowballs.

So then if this is the case? What are the opinions of why they get sold? I honestly like the NF R1 and R2 reticles. Is it the lens coatings, light transmission, adjustment knobs, or as Doghunter says...is it just the name? Some of the top shooters in the US use the NF. Wonder what they see that I or others do not? Is it because the shooters are on 'factory team?' Or could the difference just be a computerized view of light transmission that the human eye would never see? Dang...you can get a nice Kimber rifle or Tikka 3 with Leupold scope on it for the price of the NF. Like the others on here I've had Bushnells, Nikon and Leupolds. I was hoping to find an outstanding scope with a very thin distance guaging reticle. I truly have to admit that confidence is a factor in shooting or anything else in life. So...maybe it all boils down to that factor there itself.

[SongDoghunter]

Renegade,

You show me any shooter who shoots competatively and consistently wins, and I'll show you a shooter using the free products his sponsor is providing him! Take the hunting shows on the Outdoor Channel for example. If those guys really used all the products they endorse, they'd need a herd of Sherpas to haul that crap around. If I developed a coyote turd bad breath eliminator and paid these guys to advertise it, you'd see it on tv pretty soon. I think the biggest thing again is that some folks just like to have big name toys! Get you a Nikon Pro Staff Scope with a BDC reticle and you'll be thrilled with it all the way around. Less than 275.00!!!!!!

CP

[alien319]

Good conversation. I know of a good place to buy optics. It is called Liberty Optics. The owner is Scott. He is a very knowledgeable guy and he is about giving you a good product for the money. Vortex Vipers are great for the money too. His website is this http://www.libertyoptics.com/ I highly recommend him.

[dmax2500hd]

Well to all of you out there. I love Night Force scopes. I own a 12-42 benchrest model. They are not cheap, but they a worth the money. I also own Leupold as well, and there not bad for the money. I have a Nikon, love it. I also have a bunch of cheap ones and they work for what they are needed for.

I will say this there is a BIG difference in a scope used to hunt with a max range of a few hundred yards or less, and one used in the heat of the summer on a range shooting 600 to 1000 yards. When you shooting for the “X” ring at 1000 you want a scope that has very precise adjustments and that functions flawlessly. I don’t need that when hunting. The target on deer sized game is the size of a pie plate.

For every job there is a proper tool. I don’t pound nails to hang pictures on the wall with a sledgehammer

[manxxcatt]

Don't get me wrong now! Not every cheap scope is qualified to be a Leupold or Nightforce. However, there are very few that exceed the 200.00 threshold that lack much in the way of quality. I guess what i'm saying is that a 900.00 VXIII will do nothing my 200.00 Aetec can't do. The big difference in price is the big letters
L E U P O L D.

Aot of folks just don't feel like they have a quality tool if the right name isn't written on it.

I second the motion on the Simmons Aetec.

[dmax2500hd]

Well I own $200 Nikon $300 Leupold $600 Leupold VX-III and they will not do what my $1200 Night Force will do. That is a Fact, for what I use it for.

[manxxcatt]

Well I own $200 Nikon $300 Leupold $600 Leupold VX-III and they will not do what my $1200 Night Force will do. That is a Fact, for what I use it for.

I should have elaborated a bit. I've never used the Nightforce scopes. I have, however had the pleasure of using an Aetec, mounted to a very fine rifle, and I was very impressed.

[Mustang]

Well I own $200 Nikon $300 Leupold $600 Leupold VX-III and they will not do what my $1200 Night Force will do. That is a Fact, for what I use it for.

When you line these scopes up can you see any difference in brightness/contrast?

I have never looked through a NF and have always wondered why they are so appealing for that kind of $.

[SongDoghunter]

The big difference here is that not 1 in 50 shooters is going to be shooting anything at 400 yards, much less 1000 yards. A rifle of any kind sighted in for 1000 yard targets will be useless for anything in the 200-300 yard range in the first place, especially hunting. Since the vast majority of us discuss toys on this forum for the purpose of hunting, the investment in a scope with the reticles and costs of a NightFoce would be pissing away our money!

Now with that said, if any of you have a Nightfore, Leupold, Zeiss, or any other scope costing over $500, I'm fully prepared to place a $100 wager against your scope on a little shooting match out to 300 yards! The bet is as follows, I can shoot the same size (or smaller) group out to that distance as any rifle and any scope you own, regardless of who's name is on the side of it! My $100 against your scope?????

[dmax2500hd]

Most of the time with high end scopes you pay for what you get. My Nightforce does have better glass and coatings then most lower and scopes and a lot of higher end ones, but a scope is more then good glass and coatings. How does it track? What I mean is, if I dial 10 moa does it move to a full 10 moa. So if I make a dope change to hit a target at 500 yards from 150 yards does it move to the true value of the elevation I need. One way to check is by using the box method. This will allow you to see if your scopes adjustments are true or off. I will let you know I am no expert in optics, so what I say is from my experience, and what I have read on the subject. It’s all about the tool for the job. With that being said would I go deer hunting in a heavily wooded area with my 12-42X56 Nightforce? No. I would go on and elk hunt in open mountains country? YES. I would also use it anywhere I was planning on shooting at any game over 100 yards. Just dial the power down to 12.

About the bet on shooting the 300 yards what are the stipulations?

[dmax2500hd]

I was asked to add a little more info on the NightForce.

I will let you know up front I am no expert on optics.

The best way I can describe a scope would be to a Philips head screwdriver. There are lots of different size heads and most will work, but if you know about them there is a perfect fit that works better.

I have no experience with the customer service with NightForce, so I don’t know how they are on that subject. What I can say is they are one of the top choices for benchrest shooters. And if you know about the benchrest game it is all about sub quarted inch groups. I have not heard of one person on all the benchrest sites I visit that has had a problem with them, I will also say that lots of them also use Weaver scopes, the model they use are under $500. I have heard of them having trouble with Leupold benchrest scopes.

If you look around at the price of a NightForce it is in line with all top scopes. They are also way under the price of the best scopes like U.S. Optics or Schmidt Bender. Like I have said right tool for the job. One thing about right tool, I am sure there are very good scopes for much less and I own them as well. Do you plan to set the scope for 100 yards and leave it, or do you need the repeatability and endurance of a tactical scope? Can it handle many years of adjustments from 100 – 1000 yards? If you notice the scopes that cost the most are usually tactical models. Some of the reasons why are they have to handle abuse, many years of adjustments, bad weather conditions and life or death situations, and high round counts. Recoil is a scope killer. Can a $100 scope handle thousands of rounds fired under it? Can it handle the .50 BMG? If so how many times?

If you plan to shoot your rifle less then a 100 times a year, not shot over 500 yards in the heat of summer, and set it an forget it, a $150 scope will serve you well. As they do just fine on my deer rifle.

[SongDoghunter]

Most of the time with high end scopes you pay for what you get. My Nightforce does have better glass and coatings then most lower and scopes and a lot of higher end ones, but a scope is more then good glass and coatings. How does it track? What I mean is, if I dial 10 moa does it move to a full 10 moa. So if I make a dope change to hit a target at 500 yards from 150 yards does it move to the true value of the elevation I need. One way to check is by using the box method. This will allow you to see if your scopes adjustments are true or off. I will let you know I am no expert in optics, so what I say is from my experience, and what I have read on the subject. It’s all about the tool for the job. With that being said would I go deer hunting in a heavily wooded area with my 12-42X56 Nightforce? No. I would go on and elk hunt in open mountains country? YES. I would also use it anywhere I was planning on shooting at any game over 100 yards. Just dial the power down to 12.

About the bet on shooting the 300 yards what are the stipulations?

I'm not sure what you mean by stipulations. My point was simply that a $500 plus scope won't allow you to shoot a bit tighter group at 100, 200, or 300 yards than one of my $200 scopes. You shoot your rifle of choice with the Nightforce scope and if I can't equal or better your grouping with my predator hunting rifle, I'll give you $100. If I better it, you give me your scope. I'm not trying to be a smart ass either! My point is that all of those extra dollars in that optic is useless for this type of shooting. What is critical is being able to clearly aquire the target, the load, the rifle, and the shooter! A $1500 scope on a rifle/load combination that shoots 2 MOA isn't worth $100, much less $1500.

Look at the attached photo of a recent trip to the range. This target was shot at 100 yards and is sub 1/2 MOA. I can't imagine paying another $800-$900 to try and better this kind of grouping. The biggest criteria for being able to shoot 1000 yards effectively is magnification, clarity, and windage and elevation compensation in the form of a ballistic reticle and the requirement that the shooter has put several hundred rounds thru the rifle and is familiar with the scope adjustments as far as moving POI on demand. Now with that said, anyone who is going to be shooting consistantly beyond 300 yards definitely needs a scope with alot of magnification and correct calibration.

[dmax2500hd]

Doghunter-
Stipulations, how do you want to shoot this bet? What shooting position? What gun can be used?

I am not about to but up my $1200 scope on a bet. I will match your dollar amount.

I don’t know anyone who would top a 2 moa rifle with a $1500. Now I do know people that will do it on a ½ to 3/4 moa hunting rifle.

You are right in a lot of what your saying, if the rifle or the shooter cant shoot ½ moa then it is all for nothing. High-end optics do have an advantage over low-end optics in lots of ways, and that what you are paying for. In some cases I do believe your paying for the name. Like low-end Leupold’s

Your Post: While they are great scopes, there just isn't anything about their components that makes them worth the kind of money they ask. I'm the same way about Leupold. I refuse to buy one just because of the price. They are not that much better than a 300.00 scope to my eye. I've killed literally hundreds of deer and other animals using Simmons and Bushnell upper end scopes.”

There components are better and that is what you’re paying for. Better glass to see target detail, and mirage to gauge the wind, etched glass reticles. Better turrets to adjust windage and elevation. So when I want to move my groups 1 inch or 10 that’s what they move. All of this gets magnified the farther you shoot. Move a scope 1 moa at 1000 yards and that’s 10.47 inches at that distance. 1/8 moa adjustment at 600 yards move the strike of the round ¾ inch.

You are right a scope used to hunt with you don’t need to spend that amount of money. But if you want to shoot small groups with guns that can do it you will need $500 dollar scope and above. I don’t see $200 scopes on benchrest guns.

[SongDoghunter]

First of all...I enjoy a good debate and I hope you understand I'm not knocking your scope!


You stated:
"But if you want to shoot small groups with guns that can do it you will need $500 dollar scope and above. I don’t see $200 scopes on benchrest guns."

If you were asked to make a guess, what brand or type scope would it take to shoot the group I posted in my last reply?

The reason I ask is that based on your quote, a low end scope cannot shoot small groups. The picture I posted in the last reply was shot with a $2800 Nosler M48 Custom rifle and a $150 Simmons Scope!

As for the bet, it would appear that for the benefit of practical shooting out to the 300 yards, you lack the confidence in the Nightforce as far as making a signifigant difference in grouping to place it on the line for the bet, and frankly, I don't blame you. I've burned enough powder to know that for that kind of shooting, those optics MAKE LITTLE DIFFERENCE! I was referring to shooting off a fixed shooting bench. However, it makes no difference to me if you shoot from the bench, prone, etc.

Now in all seriousness, I have a little knowledge of the Nightforce scopes and for your type of long distance shooting, those types of high end scopes are absolutely essential! All of my posting was about letting many of our new forum users that are new to predator hunting know that they should evaluate what their actual, real life needs are going to be in the hunting world before they jump off and buy a $1500 Nightforce scope and a $1200 Bushmaster heavy barreled varminter. Most of the areas in and around Onslow County lack the terrain to shoot those kinds of distances and most shots at a coyote for example, are going to be taken at less than 100 yards in a calling situation. With a 6x scope, you can't even find him in the field of view at 50 yards. Again, all of this is intended as friendly debate. We will be having a forum shoot/get together in late January and I hope you will make an effort to attend and bring your rifle!

[dmax2500hd]

When I talk about small groups I mean ¼ inch groups. Can it be done with a scope that costs $50 sure, but for how long. Most low-end scopes will not last the round count of a competition gun. I guess I should have put a little more statement and explained better.

So when does this Bet take place?

[SongDoghunter]

At our forum shoot in January.

There are many, many, many other factors that are delivering your 1/4 inch group before the scope ever comes into play!

[dmax2500hd]

First of all, I don’t lack confidence in the NightForce, the rifle, or my shooting ability. There is no pay off for me. I can piss $100 away while I sleep. Ask my wife. If I bet, I bet on sure things for equal exchange. Your $100 to my $1200 not going to happen. Your $100 for my $100 that can happen.

$100 to $100 take it or leave it.

I will be there in Jan for the shoot. If you want to get together and shoot for fun before that let me know.

[SongDoghunter]

Good deal! Pay attention to the forum and we'll announce when a firm date is established for the shoot.

[999yards]

"A rifle of any kind sighted in for 1000 yard targets will be useless for anything in the 200-300 yard range in the first place, especially hunting".

WRONG.
All of my 1000yard Bench rest rifles could be shot at 100 yards. Why? Because of 20 moa bases and scopes like all the Night Force scopes with ranging reticles and plenty of adjustment that I have used.

There are alot of good scopes with excellent glass in the $300-$600 range. But they will NOT stand up to the constant windage and elevation adjustment demands that competition shooters have to make YEAR AFTER YEAR. But they will last a life time under normal use.

Also no offense meant but that bet is rediculous.

[SongDoghunter]

No offense taken at all!

Can you shoot better than 1/4 inch groups? The reason I ask is because DMAX says his will shoot 1/4 inch groups. This reiterates my point. I don't have a benchrest rifle or a $1500 scope. I do have a $200 scope and a couple of out of the box rifles that will shoot between 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch groups on most decent low wind days, not just with me behind the scope, but with any competent shooter. Therefore, other than for 400 plus yard shots, explain to me the need/advantage for the high dollar optics. A $1500 scope on a Daisy pellet gun ain't gonna deliver 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. Significant credit has to be afforded the rifle, load, and shooter vice the scope! After .25 MOA my opinion is that any differences in grouping will need to be measured with a caliper and the dollar value of the equipment becomes sort of benign!

There will be an opportunity for you guys with 1000 yard rifles to shoot at 1000 yard targets and 50 yard targets if that's what you want to do. Bring your rifles, shoot the targets, and we'll post the results on the forum after the shoot! Fair enough?

[999yards]

"explain to me the need/advantage for the high dollar optics". I thought I did. Here ya go again from previous post. "There are alot of good scopes with excellent glass in the $300-$600 range. But they will NOT stand up to the constant windage and elevation adjustment demands that competition shooters have to make YEAR AFTER YEAR. But they will last a life time under normal use".

"Significant credit has to be afforded the rifle, load, and shooter vice the scope"! Actually unless the scope is broke all the credit goes to the rifle load combo. Point is as long as you can see through the scope and it is not broken, a person can use it as a sighting device.

Also, wouldn't you need a set of calipers to measure five shot groups be dependent upon group size/cailiber. IE 1/2 five shot group with a .30 cal

[SongDoghunter]

I fully understand what you are saying but again, you fail to see my original point. Obviously, a scope used for varmint/big game hunting is not going to be used for 1000 yard shooting. Therefore, there will be no need to repeatedly adjust windage and elevation. Beginning with my original point made regarding the Nightforce, for the vast majority of shooters, their price is not justified, especially out to 400 yards as the $200 scopes are capable of equal performance at this distance. Hence, the bet! The bet was that the Nightforce is not capable of delivering any better group at 100 yards than the lesser priced scopes. I never questioned their validity for 1000 yard shooting! The essence of my point in a condensed statement is simply that they are "overkill/excessive spending" at the lesser yardages! For the cost of a Nightforce scope alone, a man can buy a semi-custom rifle and a decent scope and shoot sub-MOA at the distances I mentioned just as with the Nightforce at the same distances. I agree 100% that the rifle/load is the larger portion of the equation.

"Actually unless the scope is broke all the credit goes to the rifle load combo. Point is as long as you can see through the scope and it is not broken, a person can use it as a sighting device." Your comment here again reinforces my point exactly. If all the credit goes to the load/rifle, why not use the lesser scope? No need to answer as I know what you meant regarding long distances. When this thread was started, it was not clear that we were talking about benchrest shooting at 1000 yards. If I were going to frequently shoot specifically at that distance, I would have to regroup and modify my equipment!:happy0003:

[RenegadeRN]

I was looking at the more higher end products like the NF, Zeiss, and Swarovski and wondered what everyone thought. Voila, and we have a wonderful debate going on about the attributes of scopes! ****...all this and I just wanted to get me a nice scope.

The point in all of this I can see is that we are all standing next to each other, on the same side of the fence looking at the same animal from different views. Its from experience and we all win! Thanks....