ammo and your rifle....

[buckhunter]

some people do not believe this is true,however some of us do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5AK7fh-Oq0&NR=1

[dmax2500hd]

This is a FACT!!!!

[cameraman]

I ran out of the hand loaded Nosler ballistic tips that I shoot in my .270 this year and had to switch back to store bought Federal's. They shoot ok but they don't group nearly as consistently as the nosler. Luckily I'm friends with a guy who's somewhat of a perfectionist when it comes to loading and he has re-supplied me.

[Mustang]

Luckily I'm friends with a guy who's somewhat of a perfectionist when it comes to loading and he has re-supplied me.


Wonder who in the world that could be??????

[fmrleatherneck]

We'd only be guessing, I'm sure, mustang!

Glad "someone" bailed you out, cameraman! Good crowd here.

[gator]

some guys at work were arguing the differance between wal-mart vs. gun shop bullets. one said wal-mart has inferior ammo due to their low purchase price from the manufacture. he said he has seen the differance shooting rounds from both back to back at a target. any truth to this?

[dmax2500hd]

Just taking an educated guess here but I think it would cost ammunition companies more money to find lower quality ammo during production process. I would say that Wal-Mart has the same ammo that everyone else gets.

If you’re talking about what is called “seconds”. Seconds are only sold if it is a cosmetic defect. Think about the law suites that would accrue if over powered ammunition or underpowered started blowing up firearms.

The other problem with this statement is that Wal-Mart does not hold that much buying power in the ammo world. Cabelas is second largest ammunition buyer in the country, second only to the U.S. Military. That makes Cabelas the largest commercial seller of ammunition in the country.

[gator]

that's what i was thinking. they would almost have to run multiple production lines or would have to stop normal runs to cover wal-mart and i don't see that happening. i didn't respond to their argument because i don't know for sure but common sense tells me they wouldn't proffit from making inferior ammo for anyone at any cost

[manxxcatt]

I liken a rifle, or a pistol, to a baby. Some babies like strained peas. Some don't. you get the gist. I have shot side by side with 2 different rifles, using the same ammo, and done ammo changes comparing manufacturer's rounds. I've been convinced for years, that rifles are particular about what they eat.

Best bet after all is said and done, to get the most accuracy, is to handload. work up loads and shoot them. find out what your rifle likes to digest, and stay with it.

[dmax2500hd]

I have to agree here. If you look at the bore scope video I posted in a different thread this is one of the reasons why. That Remington take off barrel looks like 50 miles of bad road. A barrel that bad will have negative affects on the bullets jacket material, this will result in bad aerodynamics of a bullet in flight. It will also have an impact on harmonics and the resulting inconsistent flex and vibration from the barrel, in turn more negative results.

There are many things that all influence rifle accuracy. One of the big differences between factory vs. hand loads is consistency. A person that hand selects bullets, cases, primers, and powder charge is much more precise than most reloading machines. What I am talking about is you have control of all the parameters with that ammunition you load.

[SongDoghunter]

When referring to factory new ammo such as .270, 30.06 etc. the ammo at WalMart would be the same as any other retailer.

However, A company by the name of Georgia Arms buys most of the military spent .223 brass directly from the DOD at the rate of 30,000 lbs at a time and reloads it. WalMart happens to be one of their customers. Some of the .223 ammo sold by WalMart is "once fired brass reloads". I would tend to disagree with the fact that WalMart holds no buying power when it comes to ammo. According to the ATF and NRA, WalMart is the largest retailer of guns and ammo in the United States. They are the largest private employer and largest grocery retailer as well.

While the video shows Larry Potterfield shooting different ammo mfgs. points of impact, he doesn't address the individual grouping of each mfg. If you notice his targets, all of the points of impact could be moved by scope adjustment to make them satisfactory for hunting purposes although one group might be smaller than the other two. Technically, he is correct in his overall presentation!

[dmax2500hd]

(Doghunter, I am not sure of the video you are referring to.)

I am not sure where you got your info on WalMart. I got mine from NRA radio. I was watching an interview with a Cabelas representative talking about the ammunition shortages. I know WalMart over the past few years has begun to lower the amount of firearms they sell. There are many WalMarts that don’t sell firearms at all. In states like California, at least when I left there in 2002 they didn’t sell firearms. There where also people posting on other forums the liquidation of firearms at their local WalMarts. When I heard this of course I went to the WalMart in Midland MI, and of course they where not selling them for that price. I do know that they still sell them at that location but this is due to the fact that they can make money on them and there is no bad stigma for selling guns. If I remember correctly you could get a new Remington 700 for $299.00. This price of course were at locations where they where getting rid of firearms sales. A lot of guys talking about this so they could get the actions and make a custom build. I know that in Michigan and here in N.C. and some others they do if fact sell them but how many. I also pose the same about there ammunition. I could see WalMart selling more of the popular calibers like 12ga. 30-06 etc. I know this for sure I look at the shelves of WalMart and see nothing most of the time these days. I was at Cabelas on my way back from MI in Nov, and they where back up to stock with most calibers. I also saw lots of people buying ammo and guns. And yes you could say that the shelves at WalMart are bare due to people buying it up. You can also buy online from Cabelas. I did find some research online that said WalMart was the largest dealer due to 500 stores. I didn’t see how many sold guns. Cabelas has 30 locations, Bass Pro has over 50. Every time I go to Cabelas you have to take a number to get someone to help you at the gun counter. Most of the time I am at WalMart no one is working the sporting goods counter.

The other thing about WalMart is you can only buy maybe 20 different calibers from maybe four of five manufactures. I don’t know that numbers for sure just taking a guess, but 12ga, 20ga, 410ga, 22Lr, 22Mag, both 17’s rim fire, 9mm, .40S&W, .45acp, .380, .308 .270, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag, 30-30, .243 .22-250. Manufactures like Winchester, Remington, CCI, and Federal. I am sure I left out one or 2 calibers and maybe 1 manufacture. Think about all of the other calibers and manufactures out there. I found a box of .250-3000 Savage at Cabelas, not the hardest to find, but very few places have it.

On the subject of buying power sure they have some in most areas, but I don’t think they move the amount of ammo and guns as most people think they do. I would like to see where it is said that WalMart is first in sales firearms. Back to the subject at hand I just can’t see WalMart ammunition being less accurate that ammo from any other retailer.

[SongDoghunter]

(Doghunter, I am not sure of the video you are referring to.)

I am not sure where you got your info on WalMart. I got mine from NRA radio. I was watching an interview with a Cabelas representative talking about the ammunition shortages. I know WalMart over the past few years has begun to lower the amount of firearms they sell. There are many WalMarts that don’t sell firearms at all. In states like California, at least when I left there in 2002 they didn’t sell firearms. There where also people posting on other forums the liquidation of firearms at their local WalMarts. When I heard this of course I went to the WalMart in Midland MI, and of course they where not selling them for that price. I do know that they still sell them at that location but this is due to the fact that they can make money on them and there is no bad stigma for selling guns. If I remember correctly you could get a new Remington 700 for $299.00. This price of course were at locations where they where getting rid of firearms sales. A lot of guys talking about this so they could get the actions and make a custom build. I know that in Michigan and here in N.C. and some others they do if fact sell them but how many. I also pose the same about there ammunition. I could see WalMart selling more of the popular calibers like 12ga. 30-06 etc. I know this for sure I look at the shelves of WalMart and see nothing most of the time these days. I was at Cabelas on my way back from MI in Nov, and they where back up to stock with most calibers. I also saw lots of people buying ammo and guns. And yes you could say that the shelves at WalMart are bare due to people buying it up. You can also buy online from Cabelas. I did find some research online that said WalMart was the largest dealer due to 500 stores. I didn’t see how many sold guns. Cabelas has 30 locations, Bass Pro has over 50. Every time I go to Cabelas you have to take a number to get someone to help you at the gun counter. Most of the time I am at WalMart no one is working the sporting goods counter.

The other thing about WalMart is you can only buy maybe 20 different calibers from maybe four of five manufactures. I don’t know that numbers for sure just taking a guess, but 12ga, 20ga, 410ga, 22Lr, 22Mag, both 17’s rim fire, 9mm, .40S&W, .45acp, .380, .308 .270, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag, 30-30, .243 .22-250. Manufactures like Winchester, Remington, CCI, and Federal. I am sure I left out one or 2 calibers and maybe 1 manufacture. Think about all of the other calibers and manufactures out there. I found a box of .250-3000 Savage at Cabelas, not the hardest to find, but very few places have it.

On the subject of buying power sure they have some in most areas, but I don’t think they move the amount of ammo and guns as most people think they do. I would like to see where it is said that WalMart is first in sales firearms. Back to the subject at hand I just can’t see WalMart ammunition being less accurate that ammo from any other retailer.

I agree that Walmart Ammo is not inferior and is the same as sold anywhere else, except for the once fired stuff. As for Cabelas, I get a catalog from them about eevery 10 days with great buys on ammo. Everytime I've checked the status of their inventory, they list about 90% of what they have in the catalog on sale as out of stock! I'll find the ATF article I was reading and get it posted. ATF bases their info on the number of guns sold based on the NICS background checks and paperwork. It would be virtually impossible for any retailer limited to 30 retail locations across the US to compete with a retailer with over 500 walk-in stores for the simple fact that Cabelas does not and cannot sell guns online. The other issue is the cost of their ammo after shipping charges are added. Any online dealer that sells ammo, powder, or primers and ships by UPS also charges a $22.50 hazmat fee.

The local WalMart on Western Blvd has been in an ammo shortage the enire year due to 2 individuals buying over $2500 worth of ammo each still on pallets last spring before it was ever opened and shelved. The blame here goes to management. The new WalMart has deliberately avoided gun sales and has stocked little ammo due to the employee gun incident right after they opened. They got 2 shipments of popular rifle ammo in in August and September and it was sold within a day or two after being shelved. Dick's has seen the same run on ammo.

There isn't a Cabelas retail location from Mississippi to Tennessee and Kentucky to Virginia anywhere in the 9 southeastern states. The gun owners in these states are certainly not taking road trips to Cabelas to buy guns. This is a quote from the Cabelas 2008 Annual Report to their stockholders: "

Many of our competitors have a larger number of stores, and some of them have substantially greater market
presence, name recognition, and financial, distribution, marketing, and other resources than we have."
Gunbroker would actually be the largest collective seller of ammo and guns but they are not a single retailer. They are just a broker complied of thousands of wholesalers and retailers.

[buckhunter]

i'd like to comment on the less accurate ammo,i'm pretty sure the companies producing the ammo does not have a "walmart" load.the ammo walmart sells is the same ammo dick's and eastern outfitters sell,no difference.however,walmart only stocks a few calibers and it is mostly the "low end" ammo{win pp,rem core lockts and such} to where dick's and eastern has a little bit better selection{hornady,federal vital shoks}.if the same ammo was bought at different stores there might be a little difference because the ammo is not from the same lot.did he/she buy the same ammo?who knows,i don't.let me give you an example of what i'm referring to......a guy i know was shooting the win pp out of his 270 and needed some ammo and the only thing he found was the rem core lokts in the same grain.not knowing any better he didn't shoot the new ammo and just figured the same grain bullet would shoot the same,no matter which company made it!WRONG!!!!when i posted the link i was simply trying to show the diffent groupings that different bullets will give you out of the same rifle.

[SongDoghunter]

Absolutely nothing wrong with or in error about your opinion and comments Buckhunter! There is no question that different ammo mfgs. products will perform differently.

This refreshes a comment I made in another thread about being anal about tightening groups. Any factory load can be bettered by a custom load to some degree even if minute! The problem I see is with the companies now producing these $50 boxes of bullets. Much of this is hype! The Hydra Shoks and other brands are not custom loads! They still are manufactured to SAAMI Specs so that they will conform to the industry standard of all manufacturer's firearms. On a 30.30 for example, every company that makes these rounds places a factory crimp on a cannelure to prevent the bullet seating depth from changing by being fed into a tubular magazine end to end. If you are handloading for a rifle like an Encore single shot breech loader, you can adjust the seating depth and eliminate the crimp which tends to create higher chamber pressures. Regardless of the price of the bullets or the claim a particular company's 100 grain bullet will take down an elephant etc., the mfgs. are still governed by the limited number of powders and ballistic co-efficients combinations available on the market. In essence, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken S##T!:rolleyes:

[buckhunter]

oh i agree with you 100% doghunter.there is no way that a box of factory win pp or core lokts could ever compare with a handload,they are just the bottom end ammo that everybody buys because they are cheap{ i myself do not buy that kind of ammo,not even to punch holes in paper}.i myself like the hornady ammo,which cost a lil more,but for factory ammo it is hard to beat!as for the $50 box of ammo i think it's robbery!just because they use a different bullet such as the nosler ballistic tip or the sierra game king the price of the ammo goes from $25 a box to $40-$50 a box.and the one main thing i see wrong with the factory ammo i'm speaking of in general{30/06 fed vital shoks-150gr nosler ballistic tip}there is so much difference from box to box it is pathetic!for instance,i bought 3 boxes of the federal bullets with the nosler ballistic tips and a great deal.went to shoot my 06 that is zeroed with the 150gr hornady btsp bullet.shot 3-3 shot groups{3 bullets out of each box}at 100yds.the tighest group i had was about 1 1/4" and the worst was in the 1 3/4"-2".now,3 boxes of the same ammo you would think maybe that all 9 bullets would be roughly together,nope!what i had was 3 different 3 shot groups from 3 different boxes of ammo.that is one of the reasons i am wanting to start handloading and the other being availibility.

[SongDoghunter]

You're correct once again Buckhunter! The reason for the variations within the same box of bullets is the seating depths. Two or three thousandths of an inch will make a difference on grouping. I have a new box of the Hornady .204 factory rounds loaded with 32 grain V-Max bullets. Out of that box of 20 bullets, there are 7 different seating depths varying from a thousandth to eleven thousandths! There is no way that this box will maintain a consistant group if shot in 3 shot groups. Fine for hunting, not so good for match shooting!

[alien319]

The PP and cor-lokts are fine for hunting. No it doesn't compare to nosler bullets are any other of the bullets that hornady makes or the other higher end companies make but it will kill just as good. Shot placement is what will kill quicker than anything else. Too many people forget that for hunting the accuracy does not need to be match grade, at least for big game. Unless you are shooting extreme long range it just doesn't matter as much as people think it does. I have not had too many issues with Power Points or Cor-lokts. No not a match bullet at all but it will kill just fine.

[manxxcatt]

I wouldn't shoot a core-lok at anything but paper. I and others have told a many story of a bullet not expanding, and not making a clean kill.
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[RenegadeRN]

I don't really have a dog in this fight per se' coz I reload....but one comment I would like to make is that we were killing deer, hogs, elk, moose, birds, rabbits, squirrels, etc. LOOONG before we had Accubonds and Interbonds and VLD's and Barnes X's and all the other hoopla. And they were done with Cup and Core bullets like the Core-Lokt Remingtons, Winchester, and Sierra type bullets. (I do not need a 3" or 3.5" 12ga to take a goose, duck, dove, or quail...was being done long before I was born with a 2.75) I don't need minute of hair that will knock a gnat off a bottle cap at three yards to take an animal cleanly. I may have missed animals cleanly, but I have YET in my 50 plus years of hunting had an animal that was hit in the right spot fail to fill my plate that nite! ANd I honestly don't need to spend $45 for 50-100 bullets when I can do it with $25-$20 for a 100! We all buy what we like and alot of stuff in life is based upon our past experiences, including what Dad liked. Doesn't mean that the other man's stuff doesn't work and work well. With 303 million people in the US, as many that have had bullet issues and poor accuracy there is the other side of the coin where there are people who stand by products and have had wonderful successes. Except for maybe a few circumstances, if it was all bad across the board and all people agreed? No one would use them and go by the wayside! As others have alluded to, at the distances we shoot here in the east ain't nothing a good all around cup n core bullet will not take with Minute of Deer accuracy.

BUT (here is my caveat) I do have to admit I like the Nosler Ballistic Tips even though what I load are cup n core bullets. I think partly due to the price vs. premiums AND while I cannot give you a ballistic reason why? I just think they are a little more accurate out what I shoot and leaves what appears to be a more devistating wound channel. But on my plate is on my plate! As far as the discussion at hand....if we make 20 we ARE more consistent than the company that is making thousands upon thousands a day, week, or month. Something is gonna wear, not enuff powder or too much, or something gonna get in there to change seating depth or whatever...I also do not know who is biggest ammo dealer, etc.? But I know those that command those spots have contracts with other companies to provide a certain amount and part of the contract would be to keep prices lower if the company buys so much stuff. It's the way things work in all businesses. Whoz got the best deal!

[buckhunter]

The PP and cor-lokts are fine for hunting. No it doesn't compare to nosler bullets are any other of the bullets that hornady makes or the other higher end companies make but it will kill just as good. Shot placement is what will kill quicker than anything else. Too many people forget that for hunting the accuracy does not need to be match grade, at least for big game. Unless you are shooting extreme long range it just doesn't matter as much as people think it does. I have not had too many issues with Power Points or Cor-lokts. No not a match bullet at all but it will kill just fine.

when i started this thread it was to show the difference in grouping 3 different bullets out of the same rifle,not to start a war! personally i do not like the core lokts or the win pp ammo there making today,in my opinion[and we all know what opinions equal too]those 2 brands of ammo are junk! i personally would rather spend the extra $5 and buy a box of hornady ammo!too each his own.if i get a chance to take a deer,especially a full grown mature buck,i want the faith and confidence in my rifle and my ammo to make a clean ethical kill shot!not to cripple him up for him to be eatin by the coyotes and buzzards!and i know there is always that chance you'll lose one even if you were too shoot him with a 375 h&h magnum.as you said alien shot placement is what kills,but if you do not hit what you are aiming for you're screwed!for example,last year a buddy of mine in clinton asked me to put a scope on his rifle[rem 760 in .270 win] and he give me his favorite bullet to zero it in with,the rem core lokts[jeff loves that bullet.why i do not know].after mounting the scope and boresighting the rifle i headed out to zero it in.shooting off a rest that rifle would not hold a 4" group at 100yds with the core lokts,i quit shooting and went to eastern and bought a box of hornady btsp's for it to give them a try.after a little fine tuning that rifle was shooting a 1"group at a 100yds with the hornady bullets,backed up to 210yds and shot placement was perfect with a 3 shot group in a skoal can!the point i'm trying to make is if you can not hit what you're shooting at at 100yds how are you going to hit something at 200 or 300 yards,you can't!and if you do i bet it's not where you were aiming for!you know since then jeff put another scope on his rifle and is back to shooting the core lokts instead of the hornady's!when i asked him why he said he likes the core lokt's and that is all he's ever shot.he said"i like em",i said "yeah but your rifle doesn't" and then he said"don't matter" i said "good enough".too each his own.

[SongDoghunter]

Well said Renegade! You stressed my point exactly about the $40-$50 bullets. The same senario can be applied to our pickup trucks when comparing apples to apples. Let's say we both go the the GM dealer and buy a chevy pickup with the same Vortec V-8 engine and the same transmission. I buy the standard model for $24,000 and you buy the LS or LE model with leather and 6 way power seats, cd changer, carpeted floors, center console etc. for $32,000. In the end, the gas mileage is going to be the same, the warranty is the same, and the mechanical performance will be the same. About the only differences will be the price and the little details in regards to the trim package that really have little bearing on the overall performance of the vehicle. Oh, your carpet will be much harder to clean up after a cup of coffee is spilled on it! :rolleyes:This is my point on the higher priced ammo. Other than bullet design, the end result will be very close to the $15 box of bullets regardless of brand. Just as you said, what did the guys hunt with before the fancy named bullets and packaging was developed?

To take this even beyond the brand, how about the chamberings now offered. Most of the WSM and WSSM cartidges have only been around since about 2001. What in the world did all the hunters do when their basic choices were .243, .308, .270, and 30.06 for big game? They killed just as many deer and other animals as they do now if they were hunting! I'm seeing alot of the WSM guns back on the used gun sale list because the guys are finding out that about the only difference in the original .30 round of 10 years ago and a 300WSM for example is the fact that the gun kicks like a mule, it costs more to buy, and the ammo is much higher priced, and is harder to find. The bullet itself is exactly the same.

[buckhunter]

i do not see all the hype about the wsm"s myself.i had the pleasure of shooting my friends sako 300wsm friday before we went to the woods.shooting a box of the win silver ballistic tips[that were marked $30 by the way-same box today is $60]anyway,left it about 1 3/4"high at 100yds and at 300 yards it was about 4"low,big deal.it was super loud even with muffs on and had some thump to it,on both ends that is!wasn't much difference between the trajectory between it and my 06,couple inches if that,but the 06 shoots like a 22mag compared to it.bullets he had are $60 a box the ones i shoot out of my 06 are $25

[SongDoghunter]

Exactly my point. If most of my shots were 300 yards and beyond I might would consider finding a used 300WSM, especially if I ever drew an elk tag. Other than that, the only big difference is a little more energy and a little flatter trajectory at that distance caused strictly by a bigger explosion!

[buckhunter]

by the way,this thread has really gone farther then i thought it would.it is and has been a great discussion,thanks

[alien319]

I know it wasn't a war. I wasn't stating that they are the greatest bullets. I was simply stating that they kill just as good. All bullets will not shoot in all rifles. Some will shoot better than other in multiple firearms but none are the same. I have had good experiences with them. Although I am used to my .30-30 which does not have near the choice of bullets that the bolt guns or gas guns have. I use the Hornady Leverevolution in my .30-30 now and love them. I will not be using any other bullet. Good accuracy and good power. This is a great discussion.

Brent

[JollyMon]

A couple of years ago I stepped in gold it seems I was on Midway's site and found 3 boxes of 300 weatherby 180 grain nosler solid base boattails for $17.50 a box. Cheaper than just the brass would be and once sighted in at 100 yards 3 rounds cut the **** near same hole so I have 2 boxes left wish they had had more on that clearence sale . I bought them for the brass but they shoot better than Weatherby factory rounds at $70 + a box. I just wish they would make the round again.

[SongDoghunter]

This is one reason I am looking forward to the shoot! I like to see how other folks shoot. It's interesting to see how different folks achieve the same goal.

Personally, I guess I've just been extremely lucky over the years. I've owned dozens of rifles and shot no telling how many from $300 Savages to $3000 Noslers and I have yet to see a late model rifle that wouldn't shoot a 2 inch group or less at 100 yards with any factory ammo. Most of you know I only shoot Noslers. i've loaded them for over 20 years for my .270's, .308's, 30.06's, and my small bore .204's, .223's, and 22.250's. If I were to suddenly run out of my handloads, I can go buy a box of Remington or Winchester Core Loks, or Silvertips and climb up in my stand with confidence knowing that they will pattern within an inch of my handloads. I always start with some measurements on a factory round as a starting point for my seating depths. After I establish a seating depth for my rifle, I always shoot a factory round for comparison. Seldom does seating depth make 2-3 inches of difference in groups. In reality, it is more like 3/4-1 inch max! With this nominal difference, there are no worries for a hunting load.

[RenegadeRN]

Buckhunter, Doghunter, Alien, and everyone....this was not meant to start a war of any sort. I reload my own. I'm like the rest of you. But for the most part we are a different breed of hunter. We don't go to the nearest store two days before hunting season; buy a box of the least expensive stuff on the shelf and call it good. We don't get the bow out a week before season, take it in to Eastern Outfitters, have it tweaked, shoot the least inexpensive arrow or broadhead for a day and call it good or one day before dove season go buy what have you and wonder why we went through three boxes of shells. However, alot of people do. To each his/her own.

What we do is spend time behind the trigger (maybe not as much time as I would like) and we pay attention to the little details. We practice breathing, trigger control, site alignment, etc. Time behind the trigger is vital for confidence. You do know where the rifle shoots and how big a group it shoots. But last time I checked....a local deer has a kill zone of about 6". That 4" group will fit inside that 6". I know it is off topic, but hopes to illustrate my point. (25 years ago I got into bowhunting. I had NEVER picked up a bow. I found the nearest archery shop in Orange/Anaheim area. I lucked into finding the one shop where the owner was good friends with Pete Shepley and hunted with him. His bow shooting instructor put a couple people in the Olympics. Instead of preaching little bitty groups? They told me over and over and over and over again to CLOSE MY eyes and focus on technique, release was what was good! And they both said a deer's vitals were 9". All I had to do was make a 9" group! They said who gives a darn about wasting good arrow shafts by busting them up. I've never forgotten that and quit stressing about how big a group I shot. I did pay attention and over the months they got smaller on their own.)

I think we are all saying the same basic things, but looking at it from a different facet. I can shoot cup n core or JLK VLD's or Bergers VLD’s or Match Kings or V-Max or Accubonds or Barnes or what have you.... but if I go to my little spot on a 300 yard lane, under a tree, with the sun shining along with the breeze on my face and stop. BRASS! Breathe, Relax, Aim, Stop, and Squeeze--site alignment and site picture consistently time and again? Dinner..Come to daddy! But most do not. Most go to the store, by the least inexpensive thing on the shelf, bang away and call it good. I too could go to the store and buy the Corelokts or Winchester PP and KNOW without any doubt that animal is gonna fill my freezer.

Now....the one thing I failed to mention in all of this is that I too shoot Nosler almost exclusively. But not for the same reasons as Doghunter. (This is a plug for Shooters Pro Shop) There is a little known online and brick n mortar store attached to Nosler coz they own it....where you can buy their seconds. Same bullets, same construction, same everything, but something just ain't right with the bullet...a mark, a mar, something....and the prices are less than off the shelf cup n core. No fancy box, but a plastic bag. They sell 2nds in Nosler brass for what I consider a travesty. I have shot them for years and I can promise you the accuracy is as good as their firsts. www.shootersproshop.com

[buckhunter]

thanks for the tip on shooters pro shop,i will definetly check it out.as for the comment you made about the 4"group fitting inside a 6" kill zone....what i was trying to get across when i mentioned that is if you are shooting a 4"group at 100yards there is no telling where your bullet will be hitting at a longer distance such as 200-300 yards.you might not be able to hit a 16"circle at that distance!i do not know myself because if i'm not happy with my group at 100yds i'm not backing up to the 200yd line and shooting,would be a waste of time in my book.i totally agree with you about time behind the trigger and i do not do enough of it myself!

[RenegadeRN]

I know man and knew exactly what you were saying. And this is WAYYYY off topic, but I'm getting more opinionated the older I get. I know what you are saying coz I'm tough on myself about stuff. If I can eliminate ANYTHING mechanical then I know it comes down to ME! Trigger, bedding, reloads, etc. Try practicing your technique without a target in front of you, a blank target backing or with your eyes closed. We will ALWAYS react to the/with the training we have had. I shoot at 250 to get my practice down. At least for me it makes me work harder, plus if I ever get that long a shot then I am ready for it. That 12" pie plate looks a bit smaller at that range. My two deer this year were taken at 40 yards and one at 65 yards. In the last 5, years I haven't had a shot over 80 yards.

Maybe a little too early for some Zen stuff, but when I think of it, it works great. (Im hopin I can remember it enuff to get the point across.) There once was a competition in Japan where the greatest archers were to shoot against each other. Their targets were kites in the shape of fish flapping in the breeze. Each archer shot over and over again. But one archer consistently hit the fish eye. After all was said and done all were asked what they were shooting at. Everyone except the winner said they were shooting at the fish. The archer that won the competition stated, "I was shooting at the fish eye!"
As Mel Gibson said playing in The Patriot: "Aim small and miss small."

But its a whole lot easier said than done with that buck/elk/moose or what have you in your crosshairs, your breathing is labored, and you are shaking like a leaf! You will like Shooters Pro Shop. Only issue is they only post stuff if they have over runs or 2nds, so if you shoot specific cals you gotta check back often. I've waited over a year to find something I wanted, but it was worth it. And the savings are beyond belief!

[buckhunter]

EXACTLY my point renegade!if i miss,its my fault!!!not the rifle,not the ammo.....ME! about like the video where the guy shoots at that nice buck and misses him 3 times in a row,did he know how his rifle was shooting?who knows,all i can say to that is i try to have to keep my worries down to one and one thing only....human error!no matter what i'm shooting rifle,slug gun or shotgun.i pattern my shotguns shooting buckshot as well as i zero my rifle!if you shoot a 4'x4' sheet of plywood at 75yds and only put a couple holes in it then you better find a different choke or load of buckshot to try.if you shoot the plywood and put the majority of the load in it then there you go,you're back to the "if i miss it is my fault"theory.