Single Stage or Turret?

[alien319]

Which to go for? Single Stage or Turret? Any of you guys have any preference? Advantages and disadvantages? Let me know. Thanks guys.

Brent

[SongDoghunter]

I prefer 2 single stage presses

[alien319]

2 single stage presses? Can you elaborate for me please?

[dmax2500hd]

My personal opinion is start out with a single stage press. Then if you like reloading move up. What are you plans for reloading do you plan on just cutting cost or do you want to make the best loads you can get? One thing I recommend is to spend the money up front for good quality tools.

[alien319]

I'd say I want to get a little bit of both. Save some money and also make the best loads that I can.

[SongDoghunter]

As you have seen from the pics of my reloading setup, I'm a fan of Redding competition neck sizing dies and RCBS full length dies. Until the last couple of years, RCBS did not make a bushing type neck die. Lee makes as good a set of full length dies as anyone on the market for the money. I use two RCBS presses. I generally screw a sizing die in one and my seater in the other. This is just to keep from having to change them out between sizing and bullet seating. I weigh every powder charge, one load at a time. I've never been a fan of the 'uniflow" or plate (dump) type powder measures, especially with extruded powders. The reason I prefer weighing and dumping each charge by hand is the fact that when using powders like Benchmark or the other extruded varieties with calibers like the .204 or .223, a long funnel tube is often times needed to get all the powder into the case without filling the case neck and crushing the charge when seating. Typically, some turret/progressive type frames will not accomodate these tubes.

While I have a case prep center, I seldom do more than clean the fouling out of the primer pockets, size, prime, charge, and seat. Seldom do I uniform primer pockets and never do I turn case necks. IMO, these are wasted steps for hunting rounds when you are already shooting sub MOA groups.

[Sawdust]

I have two presses that take care of all my reloading needs. A bonanza coax (single stage) press for precision reloading and a dillon 650 (progressive) press for speed reloading.

Bonanza was bought out by Forster some many years ago... I've owned mine since '78 and it's still going strong. My first press was a rockchucker that I didn't keep for long after getting the coax. The rockchucker was (and still is) a great press but I like the coax press for it's ability to allow me to own only one single stage press and be able to set the dies for a particular caliber, changing the dies out on the fly without disturbing the die setting/adjustment. The coax (floating) collet system is very fast moving brass in and out of the press and I'm still convinced the "system" produces more consistent and accurate bullet seating than any other "fixed collet" press available on the market, when using common seating dies. Having said that, I do most often use benchrest or competition dies for precision reloading in this press. The coax press is pricey but if you are as anal as I once was about reloading and you can afford it, or have room for only one press, it is worth strong consideration IMO.

I reload both pistol and .223 rifle cartridges on the dillon press... fast, reliable, and produces as accurate (or better) loads as any you're likely to buy off the shelf. You'd have to shoot an awful lot (IMO) to justify the cost of this press, however.

Dave

[SongDoghunter]

Sawdust made some great points. The Dillon is high dollar and as he said, it depends on how "anal" a person is about his reloading. He has a point on setting the dies unless you are using the RCBS or Redding Competition as they have a set screw built into the lock ring. Ones they are properly set, they will return to the previous setting each time when threaded back into the press. The Lee RGB(Really Good Buy) dies are ideal for new reloaders in particular due to the low cost. However, these dies have a rubber O ring in the groove on the bottom of the lock ring instead of the set screw and are not dependable to return to the same setting although Lee guarantees their dies to produce the most accurate reloads of any product on the market which is a pretty strong guarantee!

Back to being "anal", I have never had the opportunity to shoot with anyone who practices the long range (beyond 400 yards) shooting and reloading. I know that working up loads, turning necks, uniforming primer pockets, weighing brass, brand selection, lot numbers etc. play a part in the role of achieving ultimate accuracy. But with that said, no one has ever been able to show me more than a few thousanths difference between my loading methods and the ones reserved for the Benchrest guys who feel the need to squeeze out an extra 1/16 inch on a 1/4 inch group at 200 yards. I'm just not that "anal" about it but appreciate the dedication those guys take to get the most out of their loads.

The other big factor is that in most cases, these "anal loads" typically require a rifle, barrel, or action that exceeds the capability of most out of the box mfgs in order to produce these groups, which in turn leads to the requirement of more available funds than the average shooter has at his disposal!

I guess my point is that after about 25 years of reloading everything from .204 to 300 Win Mag, my primary rounds are .204, .223, .270, and 30.06. With any of these, I've settled on a powder/bullet combination that I can consistantly shoot 1/4 to 3/8 inch groups at reasonable ranges from which I anticipate taking game or shooting a paper or silhouette target. Beyond those distances, I guess I've just never had the interest or funds to experiment with other options.

[Sawdust]

LOL - I can't argue with any of that... to the uninitiated, it's mind boggling, (glassy-eyed-kind-of-$hit) how silly-stupid (my definition of "anal") a man can get when he gets as wrapped up in precision benchrest shooting as I once was... still I enjoy immensely, working up a round to fit a particular barrel, be it a bench gun or a stock rifle. This ain't a benchrest site so I won't go into too much detail... besides, I'm way too far out of the loop now to have great knowledge on the current toys and trends of precision reloading. I can say however, that there is little need for such shenanigans in the general hunting scenario. The same can be said for hunting large varmints and at such ranges, as we are likely to find in our part of the state. Even the available range hereabouts (I'm only familiar with B&R near Havelock) is not designed or run, to cater to the serious benchrest shooter... range is to short and too much going on across the firing line for the level of concentration needed to obtain good shooting data. I tend to be obsessive with about all things I get into and so I have spent a small fortune and have accumulated more reloading paraphernalia than any man should oughta need http://www.carolinaskiffowner.com//images/smilies/kickrock.gif I'm no longer the man (mind or body) that I once was and to put into perspective what I have to say about reloading, may be taken out of context without understanding what my experiences have been.

I was a young Marine SSgt pushing recruits through boot camp in San Diego in the late '70's, when we (our series) had a lengthy break between platoons. I took the opportunity to seek out a local shooting range and hauled my trusty model 700 (30.06) there to sight it in just in case I was able to hunt deer that year. At this range, some 45 minutes west of the big city, I found a bunch of guys shooting fancy rifles and talking about reloading. At the time I couldn't have cared less about punching holes in paper, (except to sight in my rifle) preferring to shot an something that bled and fed the family. Before I could get out of there, a fellow, (I later learned he was a retired Marine MSgt and distinguished rifle and pistol shooter) 30 years my senior, took notice of me and he offered me some tips, recommended I read a little book called "The Accurate Rifle" by Warren Page, and in the process got me interested in reloading. Wasn't long after meeting George Blumfeld that I had another range buddy, Bill Baker, (a retired Navy Chief and then custom stock maker and precision rifle builder) build me a target gun based on a healthy stock-pile of .223 brass I had accumulated while our recruits were attending rifle marksmanship training at Edson Range. With that rifle, capable of 1/4" MOA groups (not good enough for national competition at that time, when 222's were kicking butt) I took to the field to do my part in reducing the Laguna mountain population of ground squirrels at every opportunity... head shots a 100 or so yards was my personal goal. That's were reloading began for me and where I gained a fair bit of knowledge and a tremendous amount of respect for precision reloading and the folks that had the talent to put all that time and tedious work to good use.

Even though (by this time) I had spend more than I should have on fancy, high dollar reloading equipment, the truth of the matter was that many of the best shooters (old timers) were winning matches using the humble lee handloader, taking 5 rounds to the bench and reloading the same brass between relays... reloading don't get no cheaper than that!!!... and I believe Lee is still making those little, single caliber kits for pocket change.

As far a putting all that precision reloading to work, I've had limited opportunities over the years since then... prairie dogs in S and ND, groundhogs in MO, and several friendly competition shoots while a member of the SDiego range and one I belonged to while working near the SW corner of our state. My employment there ended about 2 years ago and so I haven't been actively shooting since then. I'll likely be selling off much of my reloading gear in future months, as I have come to realize (at my place and age) that it's not all necessary.

A few things I can recommend, with confidence to the beginning reloader, (to keep the quality decent and value high) is to download a reloading manual from one of the premier reloading sites and read through the sections on reloading. Better yet, read 'em all and then buy at least one of them... nothing quite takes the place of a hard copy on the bench while your actually reloading. When you've decided you want to try your hand at reloading, I'd recommend a basic RCBS kit, and the full length die sets from RCBS or Lee. Armed with those basics, you can upgrade as you go... you can make some serious, precision handloads by simply purchasing neck and seater dies from Redding (my preference) or other high precision die maker. Whatever you get, know that reloading equipment holds it's value well so you can upgrade in the future without loosing much, if any, of your initial investment. Be warned however, trying to squeak the finest accuracy out of a barrel is contagious... you'll know you're in trouble if you can't wait to see the latest reloading catalog put out by a fellow named Fred Sinclair :D

Of course, reloading is only a third of the accuracy equation, the other two being rifle and shooter, but without spending a tremendous amount of denaro on a custom rifle, you can most often significantly improve the accuracy of any decent out-of- the-box rifle by simply free floating the barrel, bedding the action, and working or replacing the trigger. I'm not up on what's really hot today but I do own a few of the Savage heavy barrel rifles with accu-trigger, and think they are a very good value (solid action, decent barrel and trigger) than some other stock rifles I've had opportunity to shoot.

Dave

[manxxcatt]

and I believe Lee is still making those little, single caliber kits for pocket change.

They sure do, you can get the press kit for like 53.00 when you buy a set of dies, all told, under 100$.

I've considered buying one of these little buggers myself, easy to tote around if necessary. Anyone had experience with one?

[alien319]

Thanks guys for the informative replies. I think I am just going to end up getting a single stage press kit. I was looking at the lee kit. I know it isn't RCBS, and I know that is a good company, I just want to give my hand a try at it. I think the lee kit might offer a little more value to me being the beginner I am. I have my Remington 700 in .308 now. I would really like to get into reloading and try to bed the action in the McMillan stock that it sits in. It is shooting decent little groups right now. 1" or smaller. I might have been able to not get the McMillan stock being that it is the most expensive part on my rifle as of this time. I wanted a copy of the current Marine Corps Sniper rifle. The M40A3. I love the rifle but the stock was a bit expensive as it currently sits. I think if I bed the action it would help me to justify the price of the stock. I think accuracy would definately improve. I also would like to get a new barrel from either Gary Schneider or Bartlein Barrels. I have also been looking into the ABS Carbon Fiber wrapping on the barrel. I was going to send the rifle off to GA Precision to have them install the new barrel and true the action and bed the action. I am straying off topic here. Sorry I tend to do that. I am looking into the Lee Single stage press. I want to get a simple to use and learn on press kit. I'm new to this and I am just not that confident about it yet.

[DKA]

Like doghunter, I have 2 presses, 1 Lyman and 1 RCBS, both single stage. I want my loads as near alike as can get. Weigh every load, trim every case and make sure OAL is the same. Once you get accustomed to shooting your own loads, you can almost envision a new load in your mind.

[SongDoghunter]

Thanks guys for the informative replies. I think I am just going to end up getting a single stage press kit. I was looking at the lee kit. I know it isn't RCBS, and I know that is a good company, I just want to give my hand a try at it. I think the lee kit might offer a little more value to me being the beginner I am. I have my Remington 700 in .308 now. I would really like to get into reloading and try to bed the action in the McMillan stock that it sits in. It is shooting decent little groups right now. 1" or smaller. I might have been able to not get the McMillan stock being that it is the most expensive part on my rifle as of this time. I wanted a copy of the current Marine Corps Sniper rifle. The M40A3. I love the rifle but the stock was a bit expensive as it currently sits. I think if I bed the action it would help me to justify the price of the stock. I think accuracy would definately improve. I also would like to get a new barrel from either Gary Schneider or Bartlein Barrels. I have also been looking into the ABS Carbon Fiber wrapping on the barrel. I was going to send the rifle off to GA Precision to have them install the new barrel and true the action and bed the action. I am straying off topic here. Sorry I tend to do that. I am looking into the Lee Single stage press. I want to get a simple to use and learn on press kit. I'm new to this and I am just not that confident about it yet.

Alien,

Again, this can be as great or as little a project as one wants to make it. If you have a 700 already shooting a MOA which is 1 inch at 100 yards, I would forget about a high dollar barrel or bedding the action if it were me! I'd get the reloading kit and experiment with a few handloads and I'm fairly certain that alone will cut a 1/4 inch or even a 1/2 inch off that current group at 100 yards. Beyond that, you'll spend countless dollars and hours headaching over this thing when it isn't necessary! You really need to know what realistic goal you are trying to achieve before you start the journey. For example, let's assume that you buy a $300 + barrel, a $60 bedding kit, a reloader kit, powder, bullets, primers, dies, trimmers, etc. necessary to start. Then you work yourself up a load that will shoot 1/2 MOA tomorrow morning at 10am when the temp is 48 degrees. You go home with a big grin on your face on top of the world. Then you go back out a dew weeks later when we have a 72 degree day and you can't break a 1 inch group. It isn't the rifle, the barrel, the equipment, your shooting etc. You didn't use an Extreme Powder suited for all temps. This is just one of the big variables you run into when you get really "anal" about shooting. Top Benchrest shooters either have a dozen different loaded configurations they carry along on a shoot, or many carry a complete loading setup and load according to the conditions at the time they're shooting. First thing leads to a second and before you know it, you're buying chronographs, ballistics software etc. and you'll have well over $2000 in your setup all over 1/4 inch group for just 1 rifle caliber!

Nothing wrong with this if the goal is clear ahead of time and you know where you're going on this journey. I just hate to see guys new to reloading run out and buy a big pile of stuff and end up frustrated 6 months later with it all in the garage or on the yard sale! The same thing happens with new turkey hunters. They buy every call Bass Pro offers, a vest, a shotgun, snake boots, ground seat, decoys etc., and after getting up at 4 am for the first 2 weeks of season without hearing so much as a gobble, they're finished with turkey hunting!

[Sawdust]

alien, as you know, the 700 is a fine action and the .308 a trusted caliber for all ranges, right on out to 1000 yards... add that barrel and some competent action work as you plan and it sounds like you are on your way to a very sweet shooting rifle. If you don't already know, the Sierra 168 gr HPBT MatchKing is an all time favorite and has been a most reliably accurate bullet for that caliber... my friend George's favorite caliber and his recipe included IMR 3031. As I recall, he preferred CCI primers. Your barrel may prefer some other component(s) but that's an awfully good place to start, IMO. When you select a barrel, you'll be asked (or should consider) the twist rate, as that choice will have a great deal of influence on which weight/type bullets will likely perform best for your intended use.

Your journey has just begun... B.R.A.S.S. Good luck!

Dave

[Sawdust]

...First thing leads to a second and before you know it, you're buying chronographs, ballistics software etc. and you'll have well over $2000 in your setup all over 1/4 inch group for just 1 rifle caliber!

I resemble that remark http://www.carolinaskiffowner.com//images/smilies/laughing.gif

Sorry alien, I was typing while Doghunter was posting. I took it for granted, by your desire to build a replica sniper rifle, you were committed with a desire for ultimate accuracy. Dog's right of course, if you really aren't committed, nor place great value on shaving small fractions of an inch from your rifle's potential MOA, then you are throwing good money away on this project. You have a super good rifle now, with an excellent action and a trigger that can be tuned very keenly without resorting to the expense of replacement. My 700 (purchased in 1972) is now in the hands of my son, but I routinely shot 1/2" groups with an occasional 3/8" group (from a bench at 100 yds) with all stock parts, including the sportster barrel... with it's favorite handload. Only thing I did to it was float the barell and work the trigger.

Dave

[alien319]

Yeah the barrel and bedding would be later on. I would like to get into reloading for more than just that rifle. I guess, I'll have to do some more reading!

[buckhunter]

doghunter,didn't i read somewheres you had suggested the rcbs rockchucker kit for the beginner?i was thinking of buying one of those and getting an extra press to set up as well.

[SongDoghunter]

In my opinion, RCBS cannot be beat! I use their presses, dies, trimmers, case prep center, shell holders, funnels, you name it. Although I use several powders by different mfgs., I don't know of any round I can't load satisfactorily with a Hodgdon variety if I had to chose only one. My first kit 27 years ago was Lee and cost about $70 at the time. It had everything I needed except dies, powder, primers, and cases. I just sold a brand new Rockchucker Supreme Kit for $235. For calibers that I only need to full length size, I am well satisfied with the RGB Lee dies. Less than $20 for a 2 piece set. As many have said in their posts, there are unlimited possibilities when it comes to price ranges on this stuff just as there are with brands of bullets and rifles. The end result will be pretty close to the same. Some drive a Cadillac, others are happy with a Hyundai. I guess I have a few pieces of reloading gear that is in all of the categories.